I'm not close minded and I can fabian the possibility that we were lied too by our ancestors. Who the hell knows what really went on over 2000 years ago certainly not us ,if all we have to go on is relying on people.I know your going to shoot me down again with science facts when I say why do we perk up when we see light and why it's in our nature to be helpers in good will.
So taking God and the history out of the picture ( the endless bickering %26amp; search) So we (you %26amp; me ) just happened out of the blue . And how Lucky is that but it's all for not because if I believe what your saying were screwed. Because in that sense nothing will ever really matter when it's said and done. Were actually living a lie if you think about it . Your words are just the words of who came before you and who will come after you they mean nothing without a meaning . You can't have a meaning if there is no meaning . It's just temporary words and not enough to have a purpose. But light inspires us and gives us hope and we see pass all of this and continue on. I really think you need to help us instead of hurt us. What's the big deal if you cross party lines and acknowledge some of the hopes that are here ? In your heart of hearts don't you think we are all in this together?
We have one side saying it was accident and one side saying there's more here. I can't speak for all the ones who say there's more here but I can speak for myself. Everytime I try to distance myself from the fairytale ( I'm just siding with you) Someone keeps putting people in my life with something of meaning (spritual) and it seems to have a better meaning then the altertives.Atheists you have to admit one thing if what your saying is true. My question is can you explain this?
So when exactly is it that you start your education?
Please tell your teachers to concentrate initially on the English language and then just possibly your ';questions';(?) may be intelligible.Atheists you have to admit one thing if what your saying is true. My question is can you explain this?
';So taking God and the history out of the picture ( the endless bickering %26amp; search) So we (you %26amp; me ) just happened out of the blue .';
No.
'Luck' has nothing to do with it. Understand the natural selection and try again.
The rest of your question is completely incoherent.
This basically sounds like another ';what's the meaning of Life'; question. All that ';matters'; and all the ';meaning'; is what you believe it is. Whether you come to conclusion of what life means through religion or not.
I don't need false hope and belief in fairy tales in order to give my life meaning and purpose. If you do, that is your little red wagon to pull around. Not my problem.
I'm sorry, but I stopped reading as soon as I finished your question. You're ranting (as usual) and not asking anything, big boy.
I can't figure much out about your inane rambling but one thing is for certain, most atheists would never say we happened ';by accident.'; That is one of the greatest fallacies creationists come up with.
I was lookin forward to this question until I actually read it...no offense, but is this in English??? I have absolutely NO IDEA what u r trying to say here....if it's an actual question, maybe brush up on ur english so u'll actually get an answer...
There are perfectly good reasons why altruism evolved in humans and other species.
Was there a coherent question amongst your rant?
You are going to have to try again, but be coherent the next time.
Why do you desire meaning?
okay so if God is real then what is the meaning of all of this
So what is it, exactly, that you think I must admit?
That we're all screwed? How so?
That nothing ever really matters? Why not?
That we are living a lie? By what standards are we judging?
Where is your justification for the petty assertion that without ultimate meaning, there can be no meaning? Where is your support for the premise that what is temporary can not have purpose?
I will agree that we are in this together, in a very real sense that has nothing to do with metaphysics. This is precisely why I can not tolerate your false hopes. Diverting our resources into a useless endeavor that provides no real solutions and frequently opposes what actually provides results is a horrible drain that humanity can not afford.
Your question, if there is one, is far from clear. I'll assume you're making some sort of claim about god providing meaning.
I'll counter with another question: do you think we atheists are zombies, living without purpose or meaning, just waiting to die?
People find their own meaning in their lives. Whatever or whoever is important to them, things that interest them, things they want to change about the world, whatever.
For some people that is religion. For the rest of us it is family, career, hobbies, learning and a million other things.
Just because you feel that some concept of god gives your life purpose or meaning doesn't mean it's objectively true - it's just what you feel.
Why do we perk up when we see light? An appreciation of nature perhaps. Seeing what sort of whether the day will bring perhaps. Or just an appreciation for beauty.
Ok when you ask why we are good, partially its got to do with ';the selfish gene'; (google it) and also it has got to do with human nature (the origin of our ethics). Our ethics also come from life experience, influence of others and initiative (for those of us who choose to use it).
Taking god out of the picture, it just happened out of the blue? No, absolutely incorrect it did not happen out of the blue, it happened due to natural selection (research it).
My life is far from meaningless, it is not how I die but how I live that is important. I don't focus my life on my death, I focus my life on the life itself. Life is what you make out of it. I love life and every little aspect about it, all of the people I know and love, all of the experiences I go through. I don't view life as a waiting game in order to get the best front row tickets in heaven. I view life as a wild ride in which I don't intend to get off from for a very long time. Yes there is a purpose to my life and I am the person who decides what that purpose is. If these are nothing more than words to you, so be it there is nothing else I care to say about this matter. But what I will say is the very fact that I don't believe in an after life that makes my life that more charitable and special since I only get one life.
I hope my submission answers your question
What you are using is a logic fallacy called ';appeal to consequence';.
You are saying ';there must be more because if there isn't then our lives are pointless';. As much as you don't want your life to be pointless, that doesn't mean that it isn't pointless- and your desire to have a purpose and hence believe in god doesn't make god anymore likely to exist.
hope is an abstract concept for those unable to accept the reality of their situations.
i know there is no reason and no logic to our existence. i know there is no meaning and yes, we are all living under a delusion that we matter at all in the grand scheme.
unlike you - this doesn't bother nor phase me. i have accepted the reality of the situation. there is nothing to fear, since nothing has meaning.
as far as ';crossing party lines';. i can not support anything i do not accept or believe.
c makes a huge value judgment when he claims there are perfectly ';good'; reasons. With no ultimate reference point, how can anyone know what ';good'; is?
The notion of God provides transcendent meaning and transcendent value. Delete that notion and meaningless comes on like a storm leading down a line of despair and man must somehow escape nihilism and absurdity. Enter the existential leap (and escape from reason since the escape flatly refuse to posit God with no rational reason not to).
Hmmm. Could be they (the existentialists and today's postmoderns) don't posit God because they can't see God, but neither can one ';see'; the existential leap. That one create's one's own value doesn't follow rationally ... how can non-value create value? or non-meaning create meaning?
Christianity is holds that ultimate value and ultimate meaning pre-exists all else, and extends itself to all things.
My first address will be that there is no such thing as luck.
The second is that I agree that once all is said and done nothing we do will really matter and of course I mean when it's really all said and done. 4 or 5 billion years unless we can find a new solar system and then figure out a way to get there.
Finally I must ask how sitting in the presence of some divine being while doing nothing else but worship it for eternity has any meaning either?
Edit:
That's all well and good. It still doesn't mean your life your your eternity of servitude means anything.
Basically, you're right: There is no meaning. In the long run, nothing we do or say will matter. Our existence is the result of an endless series of coincidences, which resulted in continuous improvement due to the evolutionary selection process. That's it. Nothing supernatural or god-given with that.
And what does that mean? It means we're on our own. We have an opportunity, nothing more. We can make something of our lives, or we can miss the chance. I don't have the ambition to leave an impression in eternity. Why should I? Life has its rewards, within my life span. Looking for a purpose larger than life is futile. It just means that you pride yourself to be something special. You'll have difficulties to live up to that.
';I really think you need to help us instead of hurt us. What's the big deal if you cross party lines and acknowledge some of the hopes that are here ? In your heart of hearts don't you think we are all in this together?';
Yes I think we are all in this together... just not on the same path... I have no issues with what you believe or don't believe... But when Theists push their beliefs on others.. in our schools, our government... Then it becomes necessary to push back...
I have ALOT of Theist friends who I get along with great...a few I can even debate religion with and there is no anger... when everyone can have a debate without resorting to anger and hate then we really will be in it together....
And just for the record... I dont think religion or christianity is a bad thing... Anything that teaches love and respect for fellow man is not bad... It's how people twist it for their own benefit and status that is bad!!
This world, the world we live in, is ultimately uncontrollable and mysterious...we do not understand all, so how can we (me and you lol) deny concepts, when there is no one true known concept available...from empirical evidence...
I heard a funny quote....';Empirical evidence, why would I follow that ancient method, I follow the Metric system';...
I believe that we have a purpose. As to the nature of that purpose (ordained by God, uncreated, created static, dynamic, etc.)? That I can't fathom, and I don't try to. It's sufficient for me to state that I think we have a purpose. God never enters into my mind.
Thanks for the speech from the heart, it's appreciated.
If I understand you right, you are asking if the bottom line is that there is no meaning. Well, that has to be a possibility. Truth doesn't have to be pleasant or pretty to be true.
But I think you are still looking at things from a dualistic, Christian perspective. You're saying the universe is either an accident or it's on purpose. You really believe it's as simple as that? That this vast universe is reduced down to either yes or no to a simple question?
There is another way to see it, probably many other ways to see it. The first step is to get over this either/or mentality.
The problem, of course, is that we do have feelings, and there are things that do matter to us. These things are enough.
';Meaning'; and ';purpose'; are ascribed by conscious beings. If I raise my arm, anybody can explain the actions of the body in material terms. When I raise my arm to grab my soda, the same explanation--the ';how did the arm move'; still applies, but an observor can now understand the ';why the arm moved.'; Purpose is given to the action, not in the explanation, but in the understanding that I'm a conscious being.
The universe doesn't care about me, but so what? Why is the universe's lack of opinions important in the first place?
People in a hundred years, a thousand years, and a million years won't care about what I think or say, but why would the opinions of people who aren't even born yet really matter to me? Why are their opinions worth more than my own? Because they lived at a later time?
';Because something--whatever it is--matters to me'; is all the justification a person needs to have any sort of meaning.
If we weren't men and women, but instead robots who go about routines day to day, then you'd be right: there would just be no point. But the facts are different than that:
-In order to live, we must take actions.
-In order to act, we must make decisions.
-In order to make decisions, we must know which things to value; i.e., we must define a set of things that are worth working towards.
If a person doesn't value anything, then his life may as well be forfeit. He's no more than a creature that attempts to live off of pure instinct, such as a mosquito or a fly, and when he values poison as much as water, reality will assert itself and end his life.
But a person who makes the choice to live can only live as a human being--a thing that must have values. Values, things that we'd work for, automatically have meaning, at least within the context of the life that the values serves. Water has meaning for a being who can get thirsty (and don't we all get thirsty?). Friendship has meaning for a being who can get lonely (and who can't be lonely?). Love has meaning for a being who wants to celebrate his values when they're reflected and embodied in another person (and who wouldn't want that?).
That doesn't make all values equally good. However, the purposes of this question is not to formulate why one value is better than another (although the method is obvious if you think about what I've been saying). Rather, the point is that the very choice to live already presupposes some sort of meaning.
Well, Jerry..., I read a lot of your posts without saying anything. I have sympathy for you because you believe that we were created. I have little/no sympathy for the other side though.
I get a little different reaction from that side, whose questions I answer, the atheists, because I say much the same thing.
Basically, I say..., ';If you can't look at your own hand and come to the conclusion that we were created, you are blind.';
But, unfortunately, I feel that they are correct about Christianity. I don't believe that Jesus Christ ever even existed.
The reason I don't believe it anymore is because, True to my signature here, ';I hear the voice of a spirit that claims to be God.';
He is the one who told me that Jesus Christ never existed, and that it is a losing battle to try and 'reach' atheists.
i am not trying to reach them to change their minds. It won't happen. I just enjoy telling them that they are wrong.
You, on the other hand, I have sorrow while informing. I really like the way that you 'take them on', but, I am confidant that Christianity is just a religion. It does not bring us closer to a good afterlife.
I am labeled 'schizophrenic'by them, because they all know God does not exist. And demon possessed by Christians because this spirit denies the existence of Jesus Christ.
I hope that everything goes well for you.
Peace.
Yes, we are all in this together. That doesn't make any gods real. Nor does wishful thinking and warm fuzzies. Sorry.
edit: yes, the asker's writing is half incomprehensible, but I had to chuckle when I read, ';brush up on ur english....';
You're right, at its core there is no meaning. That is why it is up to us to define our own lives and make something out of them that is worthwhile to us. The fact that life is absurd does not in any way hamper us from having 'meaningful' relationships with other people and the world around us.
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